Election in America

kalmar · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:40

Quote:

You've almost certainly got better things to do with your life than follow every new development in this increasingly absurd story, but there's no reason to be exposed as Palin-ignorant when the subject comes up in conversation. Here, in summary, is what we know now:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverb ... 2008.palin

Apparently I don't.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

The American political process gets more and more bizarre every day.

Quote:

A month ago, in a TV interview, she responded to speculation that she might be the running-mate thusly: "I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day?"

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Craster wrote:

The American political process gets more and more bizarre every day.

Quote:

A month ago, in a TV interview, she responded to speculation that she might be the running-mate thusly: "I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day?"

It's a fair question, though. It really is an appendix of a position - I forget which previous VP it was, but one of them described it as being "not worth a bucket of warm piss".

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

It's a fair question for a pleb. Not really for someone who then gets appointed to the position that will inherit the post if they win the election.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:49

Crikey, colorful family.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Craster wrote:

It's a fair question for a pleb. Not really for someone who then gets appointed to the position that will inherit the post if they win the election.

Nope, it's a fair question for her too - as in "what the fuck is in it for me, then? What will I be expected to do all day as VP?"

Each president has made of the VP position what they want out of it (or in Cheney's case the other way around). I'd be asking the same thing.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

MaliA wrote:

Crikey, colorful family.

Her politics are solidly Republican, but she does very much appear to be the embodiment of "Do as I say, not as I do".

kalmar · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:56

Mr Chris wrote:

Craster wrote:

It's a fair question for a pleb. Not really for someone who then gets appointed to the position that will inherit the post if they win the election.

Nope, it's a fair question for her too - as in "what the fuck is in it for me, then? What will I be expected to do all day as VP?"

It might be a fair question in some context but it's a pretty poor evasion of a direct question about whether she was in the running for that position.

She sounds as bad as Bush, so far.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:57

Craster wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Crikey, colorful family.

Her politics are solidly Republican, but she does very much appear to be the embodiment of "Do as I say, not as I do".

5) Strongly agree.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

Mr Chris wrote:

Craster wrote:

It's a fair question for a pleb. Not really for someone who then gets appointed to the position that will inherit the post if they win the election.

Nope, it's a fair question for her too - as in "what the fuck is in it for me, then? What will I be expected to do all day as VP?"

Each president has made of the VP position what they want out of it (or in Cheney's case the other way around). I'd be asking the same thing.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not mocking her for asking the question. I'm mocking the party for appointing someone who only a month earlier publically asked that question.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Craster wrote:

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not mocking her for asking the question. I'm mocking the party for appointing someone who only a month earlier publically asked that question.

But what was wrong with her having done so? Given that it's a fair question, given how mutable the VP position's job description is.

kalmar wrote:

She sounds as bad as Bush, so far.

Sexist.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:05

I guess much of our assessment of her depends on whether we think McCain could last the four years. William Henry Harrison springs to mind.

I seethed at the radio the other day when someone described the Veep as the 'second most powerful' role: had the commentator heard of the Speaker of the House, the Senate Majority Leader, or even the Chief Justice?

Squirt · **Joined:** 31st Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 6675

I really think McCain is going to win this. Sadly, I think that there are enough people who won't vote for a black candidate with a foreign sounding name to make a difference,

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:06

Kern wrote:

I guess much of our assessment of her depends on whether we think McCain could last the four years. William Henry Harrison springs to mind.

I seethed at the radio the other day when someone described the Veep as the 'second most powerful' role: had the commentator heard of the Speaker of the House, the Senate Majority Leader, or even the Chief Justice?

Dunno, my knowledge of the Seattle Indie scene is limited.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:07

Mr Chris wrote:

Craster wrote:

The American political process gets more and more bizarre every day.

Quote:

A month ago, in a TV interview, she responded to speculation that she might be the running-mate thusly: "I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day?"

It's a fair question, though. It really is an appendix of a position - I forget which previous VP it was, but one of them described it as being "not worth a bucket of warm piss".

Given that McCain is about 142, the VP could well end up as the person with their finger on the button. I trust this woman not.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

Mr Chris wrote:

But what was wrong with her having done so? Given that it's a fair question, given how mutable the VP position's job description is.

Because the voting public don't want someone who's vague as to what their role would be or why they would want it. They want someone who is 'excited to be offered the opportunity to contribute in a very real way to the political leadership of the greatest country in the world', as an example made-up soundbite.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:09

Squirt wrote:

I really think McCain is going to win this.

Same here. Although I think a vast number of Obama supporters would be pretty disappointed if he does win (note to UK Media: Obama has not won the presidency yet).

And of course, I'm sad enough to care about which way Congress goes.

ElephantBanjoGnome · **Joined:** 22nd Dec, 2010 **Posts:** 8175

I hope Obama wins, even if he turns out to be a maniac, it would be awesome to see a president who is articulate.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Craster wrote:

Mr Chris wrote:

But what was wrong with her having done so? Given that it's a fair question, given how mutable the VP position's job description is.

Because the voting public don't want someone who's vague as to what their role would be or why they would want it. They want someone who is 'excited to be offered the opportunity to contribute in a very real way to the political leadership of the greatest country in the world', as an example made-up soundbite.

Of course she's vague as to what the role would be - what the role would be would be entirely up to McCain.

Plissken · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:20

Kern wrote:

I guess much of our assessment of her depends on whether we think McCain could last the four years. William Henry Harrison springs to mind.

I seethed at the radio the other day when someone described the Veep as the 'second most powerful' role: had the commentator heard of the Speaker of the House, the Senate Majority Leader, or even the Chief Justice?

You quite clearly haven't been watching Dick Cheney at work.

As I posted on rllmuk, if McCain wins, we're all fucked.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

As I said - I am not in any way questioning her motives. I am questioning the PR value of appointing someone to such an important job when they have come out in public and effectively mocked the post.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Gvien the number of "Hillary supporters 4 McCain" placards I've seen on the news, I'm pretty sure we are, indeed, fucked.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:21

Oh, Cheney's very much the exception.
The level of the VP's involvement is up to the President.

kalmar · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:22

Mr Chris wrote:

Gvien the number of "Hillary supporters 4 McCain" placards I've seen on the news, I'm pretty sure we are, indeed, fucked.

Wow, really? Jesus.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Craster wrote:

As I said - I am not in any way questioning her motives. I am questioning the PR value of appointing someone to such an important job when they have come out in public and effectively mocked the post.

It's been done before, even more explicitly, was my point in my first response. So her "well, I'm not sure whether I'd take the job as I don't yet know what it would involve" is hardly "mocking" on the "bucket of warm piss" scale.

@Kalmar - yup, sadly so. There were a bunch of them at Miss Alaska's coronation thingy with McCain.

Of course, they could be plants by the Republicans.

CraigGrannell · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1639

Kern wrote:

Squirt wrote:

I really think McCain is going to win this.

Same here.

Likewise. I think it'll be fairly close, but Obama's not going to get the nod from racist nuts (see: a good chunk of the state of Virginia, seemingly), and McCain getting a female running-mate was a masterstroke. Even if she's a crazy person, he can argue that his pairing also offers a 'first' now. Also, seeing as the Republicans can essentially use Hillary's entire campaign as their advertising, and how the American media can get away with 'jokingly' going "Osama... oops!... We mean Obama. Ha ha!", things don't look set to go terribly well for the person who's clearly the best man for the job.

I'm rooting for Obama, but it's kind of like rooting for Reading in a match with Manchester United. There's always the chance for an upset, but you just know how things are going to go.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

Mr Chris wrote:

Craster wrote:

As I said - I am not in any way questioning her motives. I am questioning the PR value of appointing someone to such an important job when they have come out in public and effectively mocked the post.

It's been done before, even more explicitly, was my point in my first response. So her "well, I'm not sure whether I'd take the job as I don't yet know what it would involve" is hardly "mocking" on the "bucket of warm piss" scale.

US politics was a slightly different kettle of fish 70 years ago.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Less than you'd think, mate.

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11927

On the one hand I want Obama to win, because he is the antichrist, the similarities* are astounding.

On the other hand, "Among other things, the ex-husband is accused of illegally killing a moose and tasering his own stepson."

*made up stuff.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

It does raise the interesting possibility of her and Yulia (sp?) Tymoshenko (sp?) getting oiled up and lesbytarian after an international conference, though.

The Rev Owen · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:33

Obama's favourite TV show is The Wire. McCain's is, I assume, Diagnosis Murder. Obama wins my vote. If I had one. The wife's trying to sort out a postal vote so she can vote for him.

Also, Sarah Palin's kids are called Track, Bristol, Willow, Piper and Trig. If you're being generous, I reckon two of those are names.

I reckon McCain's going to win. I really hope I'm wrong, but I don't give Obama much of a chance.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

Mr Chris wrote:

Less than you'd think, mate.

That's just not true. US politics is a people persuasion circus in a way that just wasnt the case in the early 20th century. You just have to look at the power of Fox and the media frenzies surrounding every single presidency since the Kennedys. Or even the 'Colbert Bump' effect - the frankly terrifying leap in popularity that (typically Democrat) politicians achieve after an appearance on the Colbert Report. It's going in the same direction in the UK too, of course.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Craster wrote:

Mr Chris wrote:

Less than you'd think, mate.

That's just not true. US politics is a people persuasion circus in a way that just wasnt the case in the early 20th century.

No - it was then too. It was just different methods.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

Mr Chris wrote:

No - it was then too. It was just different methods.

It was less effective methods. What percentage of the US population in 1936 do you think would have known that Garner said what he did about the US vice-presidency? I bet you it was less than 0.1%. Compare that to know, where every single pertinent quote from any politician in the public interest gains immediate countrywide, even worldwide coverage. Which is my point.

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11927

Quote:

If you're being generous, I reckon two of those are names

That is being pretty damn generous! Trig? Seriously?

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

The eldest daughter should have been called 'Bristols'.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Craster wrote:

Mr Chris wrote:

No - it was then too. It was just different methods.

It was less effective methods. What percentage of the US population in 1936 do you think would have known that Garner said what he did about the US vice-presidency? I bet you it was less than 0.1%. Compare that to know, where every single pertinent quote from any politician in the public interest gains immediate countrywide, even worldwide coverage. Which is my point.

Given that we're both just pulling suppositions out of our arses without even a shallow knowledge of what the US was like politically in the 30s, we may as well stop here, eh?

Although I'd add that they had newspapers back then, man. It was a famous quote.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49253

Mr Chris wrote:

It was a famous quote.

It's a famous quote now.

Still, worth shutting up indeed.

BikNorton · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 10302

Mr Chris wrote:

Gvien the number of "Hillary supporters 4 McCain" placards I've seen on the news, I'm pretty sure we are, indeed, fucked.

When that stuff started kicking up on the news, there was one oft-replayed woman speaking incredibly carefully. You could almost see her going

Quote:

Internal monologue: Now, don't say 'because he's black'
Mouth: "Beeee Caaaause Weeee Caaaan't Truuuuust Hiiiiim...."
Internal monologue: "Okay, quick review.... whew! Okay - next line - and don't say 'because he's black'!
Mouth: <opens>
Internal monologue: I SAID DON'T!
Mouth: <closes>

kalmar · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 13:12

Quote:

He goes on: "And what about his religion, he can't just drop his religion."

What do you mean, I ask.

"He's a Muslim."

No, he's not. He's a Christian.

"Well, he should make it clear he stands by Christian values in America. That he doesn't hold those other values."

But he has made that clear.

"I don't think he's done that at all. He's just run from it. He should have nipped it in the bud and made clear he's a president for everybody."

But he's said that. What else can he do?

"Just because he's a Muslim, he should make it clear he doesn't believe in suicide bombing and killing."

The prevalence in my admittedly unscientific survey of downtown Philadelphia of the Obama = Muslim myth helps explain the ongoing furore over race preoccupying the two presidential campaigns. Obama first sounded the alarm in June, saying he was preparing himself for underhand Republican tactics that would try to spread jitters among voters. "They're going to try and make you afraid of me. He's young and inexperienced and he's got a funny name. And did I mention he's black?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/au ... s2008.race

Dudley · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 8679

Kern wrote:

I guess much of our assessment of her depends on whether we think McCain could last the eight years.

Fixed that for you, they're not going to change the ticket for re-election.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 13:42

What depresses me is the sheer weight of numbers of idiots that have a vote. I realise that this is by no means a problem only in the USA, but dear Lord there are some deluded fuckers in there.

Sure, if you have the same belief set as McCain and are a staunch Republican because you've weighed things up and think it's the right thing then okay... I disagree with you, but that's what Democracy is about.

If there's actually a single person voting for McCain who was going to vote for the Democrats until he chose a female VP, then they should be neutered, and then shot just to be certain. Their politics are so far apart, it's ridiculous.

ARGH!

*rages at the stupid fools*

Morte · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 14:04

I have trying to tell people that the Republicans will win for the last year. Never underestimate the DNCs ability to fuck things up.

All that stuff with Obama touring Europe to huge crowds may well go down well over here but goes down like a lead balloon back home. While some of you think that we are all fucked if McCain wins if you look at what he's proposing (although telling what either candidate's proposals are is something of a challenge) it seems a 'toned' down version of what's gone before...and do we really think that Obama will be much different in terms of actions?

The most worrying thing is the 'protectionist' tone of some of their pronouncements on the economy...for two students they both seemed to have forgetten the unpleasentness of the late 20's and 30's.

Peter St. John · **Joined:** 26th May, 2008 **Posts:** 298

I wouldn't worry *too* much about the Clinton for McCain group - they're extremely vocal, but they could only manage a demonstration of around 60 people in Denver last week. It's still a fair way off, but the media seems to be astonished, appalled, and angry about the Palin pick, to the point where McCain's long friendship with the press may finally be at an end. In the meantime, sit back and wonder just what embarrassing story will be leaked today!

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Peter St. John wrote:

I wouldn't worry *too* much about the Clinton for McCain group - they're extremely vocal, but they could only manage a demonstration of around 60 people in Denver last week.

Let's hope that's the case. I'd assumed it would just be nutbar agitators who are pissed off that their chosen horse lost to a darkie, but I was still worried it may be a bigger movement than it apparently is. What had concerned me was a Guardian article I read a few weeks ago about how a significant percentage of potential voters are put off from voting for Obama because he's black, and how this is leading to Clinton supporters (many of whom are working class whites) switching to McCain.

Quote:

It's still a fair way off, but the media seems to be astonished, appalled, and angry about the Palin pick, to the point where McCain's long friendship with the press may finally be at an end.

I'd not been aware of that - I'd picked up from the little I've heard on the radio the last few days that everyone was very happy with the choice of Palin. I'd assumed that Republican supporters being happy = Fox and the right wing press being happy.

Peter St. John · **Joined:** 26th May, 2008 **Posts:** 298

Obama is probably going to have a harder time in the Kentucky/Virginia/West Virginia states than Clinton would have if she was the candidate, but those states were likely to turn red anyway in November (the possible exception is Virginia which he may just manage to snatch if he's lucky).

The press were flabbergasted on Friday, hailing it as a game-changing masterstroke, and obviously, Fox is still cheering her to the heavens. But as it's becoming clearer that she was vetted at the last minute "with little more than a Google seach" (according to an anonymous McCain insider), the rest of the news networks and papers are starting to wonder just what the hell he was thinking as each day seems to bring another revelation. Today, we've moved on to Palin trying to interfere in her corruption investigation and that she may have been a member of the Alaskan Independence Party. Who knows what it'll be tomorrow?

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Ah - if I'd been reading the news today I'd have picked up on all of that.

I was very surprised that the Democrats were the first to do any research on her in her home town...

It does make it look more and more like a hurried stunt.

kalmar · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 15:43

Mr Chris wrote:

Quote:

It's still a fair way off, but the media seems to be astonished, appalled, and angry about the Palin pick, to the point where McCain's long friendship with the press may finally be at an end.

I'd not been aware of that - I'd picked up from the little I've heard on the radio the last few days that everyone was very happy with the choice of Palin. I'd assumed that Republican supporters being happy = Fox and the right wing press being happy.

If you mean press as in commentators in respectable newspapers, of any political flavour, then the reception has been largely of the 'wtf' variety, plus the dirt digging.
Yes, of course Fox will say whatever the GOP thinks is right, that's a given.

GazChap · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 15:44

If I was her, I'd have called one my sons nilaP.

kalmar · **Posted:** Tue Sep 02, 2008 16:02

If I were her, I'd have named one of my sons Militia, or something.

In other news:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/se ... ctions2008

Quote:

The father has been revealed as her boyfriend, 18-year-old Levi Johnston, who dubs himself a "fuckin' redneck" on his MySpace page - which is no longer publicly available - and lists that he is in a relationship and "doesn't want kids".

Be Excellent To Each Other

Election in America
Probably to be rigged anyway.

Who is online

Be Excellent To Each Other

Election in America Probably to be rigged anyway.

Who is online

Election in America
Probably to be rigged anyway.