Be Excellent To Each Other

How much of a following for Rugby Union is there around here?

Guinness Premiership kicks off again on Saturday and I'm really looking forward to this season, starting with my first exposure to global trial ELVs at the Twickenham double header (less than £25 all in for Wasps v Irish and Sarries v Quins - sporting bargain of the year).

For the GP will Hartley be as good as I hope or will he do something stupid and get banned for another six months, how will Foden go at 9, will Matthew Tait have sussed field positioning at 15, can Miles Benjamin and Matt Banahan both avoid second season syndrome and how much game time will Serge Betsen actually get?

AIs also potentially very interesting with new regimes in place for England and Ireland and World Cup seeding on the line.

And finally any interest in running a mini fantasy league for the GP? Coral have a reasonably straightforward looking game up at http://www.guinnesspremiershipfantasyrugby.com, although the values on players do seem to have been decided by a blindfolded man and a dartboard.

Not a great deal of interest then.

Based on the first weekend, ELVs seem okay, not convinced about numbers at the lineout or quick throws being allowed to go backwards but the rest of it seems tolerable if somewhat unnecessary. In player news Hartley looks powerful in the loose, but can't throw for toffee and still needs to calm down, Jordan Crane looks like he's improving every game, going to the Churchill Cup with the Saxons did him a world of good and good to see Ellis and Care having decent games at 9, even if it did mean Sarries losing.

This year ITV4 have a highlights show at 6.30 on Sunday evening, repeated on ITV1 at some point in the week I think - no idea how it was as our digibox was playing silly buggers at the weekend.

I follow the Internationals and sometimes Saracens, but I'm a decidedly fair-weather fan, sadly. I do watch all the Internationals though... that probably makes me some horrific proper rugby pariah, doesn't it?

Nope, just leaves you in the same camp as most of the games audience.

Always surprises me that so few people get drawn into the club game by the internationals, particularly given the quality on display the latter stages of the Heineken Cup being superior to pretty much everything on offer in the 6 or 3 Nations (speaking of which how do you see Aus v NZ going on Saturday?).

Saracens fan here too, should be a good amount of fair weather for you this year - I'm pretty optimistic about the season, minimum I'd be happy with is getting back in the Heineken for next year and see an outside shot at making the fourth play off spot. Eddie Jones seems to have the right ideas and the squad looks pretty well rounded now, Chris Jack, Cencus Johnston, Michael Owen and Borthwick all in decent nick and Bradley Barrit coming in November. It's only fly-half which is a little worrying as I'm not totally convinced by Glen Jackson.

Hodgson, you tosser, not only do you not kick all your fucking team's points to justify me putting you in my fantasy team, you then deny Sarries a draw with a last ditch drop goal on 80 minutes. I'm going to be livid on Sunday if it looks like Saull's try should have been when I see the highlights. Also the new pinky red change strip looks crap compared to the black and white hoops of previous years.

Wilko's out then. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/english/7645265.stm

Done his ACL by the looks of it. That bloke has no luck. Still, just when things were starting to look up for England in the Six Nations too! Never mind, I'm not sorry to see the back of a good player mind!

I love rigby, and I am glad that ITV now show the highlights..... about bloody time I say.

I would go to more matches but i enjoy playing, to miss my saturday games

My two ACL reconstructions (on the same knee) prevent playing anymore for me unfortunately.

I have a major issue with ITV Sport. I can't bear to watch any of their work. Sometimes I force myself to watch the F1 and Champions League football, but that's tough enough.

We are lucky enough in Wales that BBC Wales saw fit to televise live Magners League games and EDF. Sky have the Heineken so I have no need to watch ITV's (undoubtedly bad) highlights show. This is a good thing. I keep an eye on the Guinness on Sky but the games are often dull grinds.

Who is "Rigby" btw? Is he aware of your feelings? ;-)

Poor Wilkinson. If he wasn't made of glass, imagine how many international points he'd have by now! He wouldn't be missed particularly if Cipriani was fit, but with him still not back from his injury there's a bit of a hole in the side at the moment.

Bugger.

Perhaps Rob Andrew will dust of his togs?

Cipriani looks like he could be the business to me. I still don't think he's 100% ready at international level though he isn't far off for Wasps from what I've seen last season. He looked sharp when he played again this season too. I think if Jonny "Porcelain" Wilkinson was fit he would be in and Cipriani would get the last 20 minutes to make an impact when defences were tired though. I think we have probably seen the last of Wilko now. All those injuries must take their toll over time, 30 in May I just can't see him getting back to a level where he is pushing for an England place.

Besides, I'm sure once Jonno gets going all you'll need at 10 is a seige gun who can tackle. I don't see him overseeing an expansive running game somehow! LOL! I suppose time will tell. Maybe looking back at Gatland's career you wouldn't have said that of him either!

I dunno, Cipriani did pretty well at the tail end of the last Six Nations didn't he? Against Ireland he started the match and looked a lot better at Fly Half than he did coming on at Full Back for a little. I think he's the kind that thrives on being the one responsible at Fly Half, and think if both Johnny and Danny were fit, Cipriani would get the nod to start... though I guess it would depend on how they'd been doing for the season, were either of them at all healthy!

They might even play both again, with Wilkinson good enough in the tackle to play at centre.

I agree he should never be 15. I'd rather see him sit on the bench for 50/60 mins than play 15. I also agree that he thrives on the responsibility, but it's a question of experience and decision making at the highest level I question. Like the charged down kick against Italy for their try. These will come in time I'm sure, but learning the slow and steady from Wilkinson would have stood him in good stead. Not to mention having to feel splinters for another year to temper his raw confidence!

Man, so much to disagree with.



Yeah, because all that Johnson/Woodward's England did was maul to the halfway line and then wait for a penalty for Wilkinson to kick.

Some evidence:



Top English try scorers

1 49 Rory Underwood retired by 2003
2 31 Will Greenwood in 2003 WC squad
3 30 Ben Cohen in 2003 WC squad
3 30 Jeremy Guscott retired by 2003
5 28 Jason Robinson in 2003 WC squad
6 24 Dan Luger in 2003 WC squad
7 21 Josh Lewsey in 2003 WC squad
8 18 Cyril Lowe dead by 2003
9 16 Matt Dawson in 2003 WC squad
9 16 Lawrence Dallaglio in 2003 WC squad
9 16 Neil Back in 2003 WC squad
12 15 Austin Healey surprised to not be in 2003 WC squad

Yes the team also ground out some results, but the typically portrayed image of that team is completely inaccurate. Autumn 2002 to Summer 2003 it was indisputably the best in the world and then managed to win the World cup while in decline with the teams best player out for a period between 50 minutes in and the France semi final on the Somme, Wilkinson losing form and Thomson getting the yips.

I'm aware your remark was flippant, but given the depressing state of English rugby since I have to cling to that period at times.

And with that off my chest back to the present day:

Speaking of Cohen and Thomson, did anyone see the shitty Brive v Newcastle match last night? Andy Goode has obviously found the pie shop in SW France and appears to have become about twelve times the player he actually is in the minds of the Sky commentators since leaving Leicester. Also Rory Clegg looks like a skinny Prince Harry.

And on Cipriani/Wilkinson, he hasn't played full back for England (one sub as Outside Centre, one sub as Fly Half and a start as fly half (albeit against a rubbish Irish side)) but he did win a Heineken Cup medal playing there so I see no problem considering him for the position, in my mind only as cover though he really is better when he gets a lot of touches of the ball.

Wilkinson is a 10 or nothing he has neither the pace or vision to play centre and to my mind was actually behind Flood in the pecking order even before getting injured.

Loads of European action this weekend though so hoping for some good games - Sale v Munster looks like the pick, so it will probably be a dire tactical affair.

Autumn Internationals coming up very shortly, I'm getting quite excited at the prospect of international rugby I can see on Terrestrial TV (also getting my hopes up a little too much regarding England's prospects).

All horribly important for the 2011 World Cup too as the rankings after this set of matches decide the seeding, England with the potential to go to fourth and Scotland to get back to eighth.

Training squads so far announced:

England - three changes from the July EPS, hauling in Cipriani and Lipman to replace Wilkinson and Moody and of particular note Abendanon coming in for Varndell presumably to fill the 15 jersey (with any luck this means Tait at 13).

Backs: Olly Barkley (Gloucester), Danny Care (Harlequins), Harry Ellis (Leicester), Toby Flood (Leicester), Riki Flutey (Wasps), Shane Geraghty (London Irish), Dan Hipkiss (Leicester), Josh Lewsey (Wasps), Jamie Noon (Newcastle), Pete Richards (London Irish), Paul Sackey (Wasps), James Simpson-Daniel (Gloucester), Mathew Tait (Sale), Nick Abendanon (Bath), Danny Cipriani (Wasps).

Forwards: Steve Borthwick (Saracens), George Chuter (Leicester), Jordan Crane (Leicester), Tom Croft (Leicester), Dylan Hartley (Northampton), James Haskell (Wasps), Nick Kennedy (London Irish), Lee Mears (Bath), Michael Lipman (Bath), Luke Narraway (Gloucester), Tom Palmer (Wasps), Tim Payne (Wasps), Tom Rees (Wasps), Simon Shaw (Wasps), Andrew Sheridan (Sale), Matt Stevens (Bath), Phil Vickery (Wasps).

Wales - Five uncapped players in this lot and Henson comes back (not really a surprise). Michael Owen maybe a little unlucky not to get a recall and Scrum half looks a bit iffy considering Peel's form at Sale this season.

Backs: M Stoddart (Scarlets), L Byrne (Ospreys), L Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues), M Jones (Scarlets), S Williams (Ospreys), G Henson (Ospreys), T Shanklin (Cardiff Blues), A Bishop (Ospreys), J Roberts (Cardiff Blues), D Biggar (Ospreys), J Hook (Ospreys), S Jones (Scarlets), M Roberts (Scarlets), D Peel (Sale Sharks), G Cooper (Gloucester).

Forwards: G Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), D Jones (Ospreys), A Jones (Ospreys), E Roberts (Sale Sharks), R Thomas (Newport Gwent Dragons), H Bennett (Ospreys), M Rees (Scarlets), R Hibbard (Ospreys), AW Jones (Ospreys), I Gough (Ospreys), I Evans (Ospreys), L Charteris (Newport Gwent Dragons), D Jones (Scarlets), A Powell (Cardiff Blues), M Williams (Cardiff Blues), R Sowden-Taylor (Cardiff Blues), R Jones (Ospreys, capt).

Scotland - some newer faces in the squad but enough tried and not very good players for Hadden to pick one of his standard teams I suspect. Quite how going and training in Spain is going to be good preparation for test matches at Murrayfield I don't know though.

Backs: Mike Blair (capt), Ben Cairns (both Edinburgh), Chris Cusiter (Perpignan), Nick De Luca (Edinburgh), Max Evans, Thom Evans (both Glasgow Warriors), Phil Godman (Edinburgh), Rory Lamont (Sale Sharks), Sean Lamont (Northampton Saints), Rory Lawson (Gloucester), Graeme Morrison (Glasgow Warriors), Dan Parks (Glasgow Warriors), Chris Paterson, Hugo Southwell, Simon Webster (all Edinburgh)

Forwards: John Barclay, Kelly Brown (both Glasgow Warriors), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh), Alasdair Dickinson (Gloucester), Ross Ford (Edinburgh), Scott Gray (Northampton Saints), Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors), Jim Hamilton (Edinburgh), Nathan Hines (Perpignan), Allister Hogg, Allan Jacobsen (both Edinburgh), Euan Murray (Northampton Saints), Matt Mustchin (Edinburgh), Alasdair Strokosch (Gloucester), Simon Taylor (Stade Francais), Jason White (Sale Sharks)

Ireland - O'Driscoll reappointed as captain

Backs: Tommy Bowe (Ospreys) Ian Dowling (Shannon - Munster) Girvan Dempsey (Terenure College - Leinster) Gavin Duffy (Galwegians - Connacht) Keith Earls (Young Munster - Munster) Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College - Leinster) Shane Horgan (Boyne - Leinster) Robert Kearney (UCD - Leinster) Geordan Murphy (Leicester) Barry Murphy (UL Bohemians - Munster) Brian O'Driscoll (UCD - Leinster) Captain Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution - Munster) Tomas O'Leary (Dolphin - Munster) Eoin Reddan (Wasps) Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College - Leinster) Peter Stringer (Shannon - Munster) Andrew Trimble (Ballymena - Ulster) Paddy Wallace (Ballymena - Ulster)

Forwards: Rory Best (Banbridge - Ulster) Tony Buckley (Shannon - Munster) Ryan Caldwell (Dungannon - Ulster) Bob Casey (London Irish) Tom Court (Malone - Ulster) Stephen Ferris (Dungannon - Ulster) Jerry Flannery (Shannon - Munster) John Hayes (Shannon - Munster) Cian Healy (Clontarf - Leinster) Jamie Heaslip (Naas - Leinster) Marcus Horan (Shannon - Munster) Bernard Jackman (Clontarf - Leinster) Shane Jennings (St. Mary's College - Leinster) Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution - Munster) Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution - Munster) Paul O'Connell (Young Munster - Munster) Malcolm O'Kelly (St. Mary's College - Leinster) Mick O'Driscoll (Cork Constitution - Munster) Alan Quinlan (Shannon - Munster) Michael Ross (Harlequins) Donncha Ryan (Shannon - Munster) David Wallace (Garryowen - Munster) Roger Wilson (Northampton)

Forwards: John Barclay, Kelly Brown (both Glasgow Warriors), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh), Alasdair Dickinson (Gloucester), Ross Ford (Edinburgh), Scott Gray (Northampton Saints), Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors), Jim Hamilton (Edinburgh), Nathan Hines (Perpignan), Allister Hogg, Allan Jacobsen (both Edinburgh), Euan Murray (Northampton Saints), Matt Mustchin (Edinburgh), Alasdair Strokosch (Gloucester), Simon Taylor (Stade Francais), Jason White (Sale Sharks)

Pacific Islands

Soane Tonga'uiha (Tonga), Kisi Pulu (Tonga), Census Johnston (Samoa), Justin Va'a (Samoa), Sunia Koto (Fiji), Aleki Lutui (Tonga), Ifereimi Rawaqa (Fiji), Kele Leawere (Fiji), Hale T Pole (Tonga), Daniel Leo (Samoa), Nili Latu (Tonga), Semisi Naevo (Fiji), Viliami Vaki (Tonga), George Stowers (Samoa), Sisa Koyamaibole (Fiji), Finau Maka (Tonga), Mosese Rauluni (Fiji), Sililo Martens (Tonga), Seremaia Bai (Fiji), Pierre Hola (Tonga), Vilimoni Delasau (Fiji), Sailosi Tagicakibau (Samoa), Seilala Mapusua (Samoa), Seru Rabeni (Fiji), Kameli Ratuvou (Fiji), Isireli Naqelevuki (Fiji), Isireli Bobo (Fiji)
Gavin Williams (Samoa)

As others have said, I'm not sure about Cipriani's defence or decision making but on the evidence of Saturday's game, bloody HELL - the boy's an overlap waiting to happen. I can't remember ever seeing anyone who moves laterally as quickly as he does - yes, usually it's the very last thing you want your backs doing but he makes it work.

Frankly I can't wait for Welsh rugby to tear itself to pieces from the inside again. For fuck's sake. Stupid bloody village tribalism as usual. I don't know.

Some exciting young players amongst that Welsh squad. Expect blistering open play running again. Henson is an important player to come back in assuming he is fit.

I'm trying to think of something controversial to say to rile you up again, but I can't think of anything.

Oh yeah this will do: Dragons to turn Gloucester over in front of the Shed in the open running game the Dragons are world renowned for. You heard it here first (or not at all if history proves me to be wrong! :-) )

For what it's worth I think Wales will come out of the Autumn internationals with heads held high.

England, I suspect, will flatter to decieve, look good in patches but overall will leave England fans disappointed.

Scotland. Who cares? They should give up.

Ireland are on the wane. I think their opportunity for greatness was missed in RWC France.

Really, quite funny, although annoyingly resolved now. Would have been nice to see Wales suffer the inconveniences that England put up with until the EPS.

Looked decent on Sunday, though admittedly against a pretty shocking Wuss team. Biggest problem for Wales is scrum-half I reckon, Phillips has just had more surgery and Peel seems to rank behind Wigglesworth at Sale, and given he'd be at best my sixth choice to play for England that seems a worry. Also fly-half Jones isn't kicking that well from hand and Hook isn't kicking that well at the posts - that I imagine will come good one way or another pretty quick though.

For reference touch papers include, being rude about Steve Borthwick, people who say that Matthew Tait is too small/not powerful enough, descriptions of Nick Kennedy as light weight, the suggestion that Shane Geraghty should be considered at fly half for England, Ben Kay, the concept that Chris Paterson is the best goal kicker in the world and Mike Phillips' face.

Wouldn't have surprised me in the least, Dean Ryan appears to have completely lost the plot. I really like Gloucester as a team but they're incredibly out of sorts this season. They also seemed to have ruined another player they brought in to kick goals, after the disaster of Paterson now Barkley's looking nothing like the player he was last season.

EDF remains entirely stupid though, can't go developmental quick enough as far as I'm concerned, in theory though in theory Ospreys vs Irish and Bath vs Cardiff should be juicy.

EDIT:

Oh yeah, and my god Hougaard was shit - Leicester have got to be worried during the AIs as there's no way Flood won't be at least on the bench for England.

This EDF was something of a turn up for the books this weekend, in that it was actually worth watching, not games of the highest quality but pretty entertaining.

I'm still not quite sure how Cardiff managed to beat Bath, was excited to see Foden and Myler progressing well at Saints, was very impressed with the younger, fatter Armitage and with today's results am shocked that there's a Hairsprays vs Gloucester semi, given that neither team on balance deserves to have qualified.

Bit of a worry for Wales with South Africa next weekend, if the national lineout operates anything like the O's then Matfield is going to be snaffling 90% of their throws, that wasn't ever a full strength Irish pack causing that much nuisance.

Funny you should echo this as we were moaning about this is work today. Wales have quality in most areas but hooker is strangely lacking. Arguably 6 decent props - 2 Hairbears, Horseman, Jenkins, Yapp and Rhys Thomas (ok he's green but he's a Dragon and has looked good so far) - but Matthew Rhys and Huw Bennett are the best of a bad bunch as far as hookers are concerned. Big problems at hooker and the Saffers won't give us turnover ball and will compete like bastards in the line. It could be a long 80 on Saturday I fear.

Still "Johnno" still seems to wear a cape and pointy hat and weild a wand. Let's see if England revert to type or actually try and play shall we? ;-)

Pity Bennett's out until December then.

Hooker is a problem for the Northern Hemisphere as a whole at the moment for some reason, it's probably the position with the least competition at the moment for the Lions tour. Probably the best prospect is Dylan Hartley, still raw, has a temper and sometimes gets the yips when throwing, but he's one of the most exciting forwards to watch in the loose and he scrums well (should do given he's a converted prop).

I'm worryingly optimistic about the England team for Saturday, which means it'll probably go horribly wrong. It's also forecast to piss it down so the full Brian Smith masterplan might not get debuted. Overall though if I see a pack trying to deliver good quality quick ball and a set of backs who appear to be playing the same game then I'll be reasonably happy.

The 22 really highlights the absence of 25-30 year olds with 30 odd caps, for which we can thank late Woodward and all of Robinson's reign, but both the black three ((c) Ugo Monye) and the half backs look potentially classy and the pack should be good in both the loose and set piece.

Pacific Islanders are very strong on paper, so good test for the new regime first up. I can actually see PI going home with two wins out of three, France and Italy are there other games.

Oh and as it amused me when posted elsewhere, you've got Frodo on the ring wing.

But surely wearing the One Ring of Power he will be unstoppable. Why didn't we think of this before? (Yes, I know it went into the volcano with Sauron.....)

Oh dear; Henson's out with Achilles trouble.

I really wanted to see how he went against the Boks - mainly with one eye on the Lions tour, really hoping to see Henson-Tait at 12-13.

Five tries in the first match do? Getting really nervous about Australia on Saturday now as a much sterner test of the new boys - going to be an awesome day out at Twickenham if it does go well though.

Yeah agreed. Swanning about in front of a scratch Pacific Islands side is one thing, the Aussies will be quite another. Far more organised and will apply far more pressure. It will be interesting.

Shame Wales didn't have the bottle to close out SA. Should have won that game. Even with the interception try had they simply should have played like an English side and got field position and kicked their pens it would have been a win. If they could catch and pass, well it would have been even better! Hey-ho.

What are we doing playing Canada anyway? Why isn't that the game outside the IRB window and Australia the one in it? Eh? Eh WRU? Eh?

Managed to cock up recording the Wales game on Saturday so have only seen the shortish highlights on the BBC website - my overwhelming thought afterwards being 'How does James Hook make himself that orange?'

I'm really looking forward to gorging on the oval ball this weekend, three matches to watch on TV and I'm at a live game on Saturday and Sunday.

In sort of related news.

1. Have you seen the BaaBaas lineup for Australia at Wembley?

Backs: P Montgomery, B Habana, J Rokocoko, S Williams, R Gear, J de Villiers, O Smith, F Trinh-Duc, G Gregan, F du Preez.

Forwards: P Collazo, G Steenkamp, C Hayman, J Smit, M Regan, B Botha, S Borthwick, C Jack, N Koster, S Burger, J Collins, R McCaw.

Jesus that's good (apart from Mark Regan).

2. Ever listened to the Alternative Rugby Commentary? Scotland game was massively improved by listening to that instead of Andy Nicol droning on.

Actually, as much as it pains me to say this, I think Mark Regan is a decent player. He used to be a penalty giveaway machine in his younger days but once he cut that out of his game he became the player he should always have been. I'm afraid that this image of a modern ball carrying hooker is flawed in the same way that ball carrying props was flawed in the post 1999 era. Hookers are the key man in securing your own set piece ball and in disrupting the other side's. If he is Keith Wood who could do it all, or Sheridan at prop then magnificent, but if he isn't set piece comes before anything else. And Regan has that in spades for me.


I haven't. Although I have seen their stuff before, big hits and one about rugby being a mans game which was hilarious.

In Wales we don't have to worry about Andy Nicol or that other twat Nick something. He is such a cunt who to me displays repeated ignorance of what is really going on just beneath the surface time and time again. We get Jiffy on the mike, or if he's in the studio we get Eddie Butler, Gareth Charles or other people who have genuine knowledge of the game. I do enjoy Brain Moore when he's on with Eddie Butler as he is more interested in riling up "Edward" than watching the game! LOL!

Are we thinking of the same Mark Regan? Decent club pro, world class wind up merchant, but not in the class of the rest of that side (he's in it due to long term connections with the Barbarians). Good scrummager, often a poor thrower at the line out and is still liable to give up silly penalties. I like him as one of those players who has made the most of his abilities and for his efforts last year for England but Steve Thomson he ain't.



Again, different Eddie Butler? Can't stand him, frequently makes basic errors in identifying players, tries too hard to be 'poetic' and normally appears to have absolutely no knowledge of what is happening at club level, basing all his opinions on international appearances over a year ago.

I am extremely tempted to abuse my mod powers and rename this thread to "the Guwuffle and MyFinger show". And also to post some of the pics I have of MyFinger pissed, Fixing Welsh Rugby For Once And For All, Presenting Point Four (Of Five) Of What Is Wrong With The Local Club System. That kind of thing.

Out of here you! Out out out! This is a place only for people who can make at least 5 (valid) points about rugby! :-)


And all those half empty whiskey bottles agree I'm right too.

You discuss rugby with Salman Rushdie? Respect!

Apparently.......

Although I had drunk a LOT of whiskey. Maybe so much that my hallucination has formed itself into a photo and become fact?

So, how many World Cup Finals have Wales got to in the last eight years?

*runs*

The same number as the England football team have taken part in, in the last 42 years.


At least Wales had the dignity to be beaten by Fiji and get knocked out in the group stages, rather than inexplicably getting to a final they were never going to win! LOL!

PS Guwuffle: Eddie Butler is a fucking legend! He is a regular on Scrum V so maybe he doesn't watch the Guinness and listen to Barnsey to know what's going on?

I seem to have struck a nerve.

Why the hell is there a picture of Gauntlet?

casually thrown down in the middle of the thread

Ah, I get it now!

That retort only works if Wales have managed it in the same time... which they haven't.

But Wales have also taken part in 0.00 football World Cup finals in the last 42 years...?

I'm confused.

Ah ok, I see. Alright, the same number of <blah> 8 years, <blah>. Ah never mind.

Still nothing like an opportunity to flatter to deceive against the All Blacks on Saturday. I predict an early All Black lead, followed by a rousing Welsh start to the second half bringing Wales back into touching distance, then an All Black resurgence in minutes 70-80 resulting in a comfortable All Black win, while Wales finish the game to tumultuous applause from crowd pleased to see Wales live with the All Blacks for 70 mins.

Also, I'm glad the subtlety of my Gauntlet wasn't lost on some! :-)

I gloved it.

Yes. I have to hand it to me.

Oh woe is me!

How come The Blackness (thanks ARC) are so good?

Wales have played well today (there are 3 mins to go, but even a Welsh score won't change things) but NZ have been pure quality. In the first half Wales really competed with such intensity I was amazed not to see injuries all over the park. But in the second NZ stepped things up somehow. A great game which NZ undoubtedly deserved to win but this has been a fantastic contest.

Brian Moore has been critical of Wales' kicking game in the second half but I think that is unfair. I think given the ELVs they demand such a game. Wales just lost it.

On behalf of England, how poor they are amazes me. Quality players who look excellent in the Guinness just fail to deliver in international rugby. They look ponderous and half paced. A SA team who have really been off colour this tour made England look silly. The thing that they struggled to deal with vs Wales and then Scotland was pace on the game. England seemed to just want to plod through it, even though Danny Care taps and goes and makes breaks the others don't seem to respond. Cipriani needs to go back to Wasps and develop. He has undoubted talent but questionable decision making. But Flood looks worse. So I guess Cipriani stays in for me. For all his plaudits Sackey doesn't look like he could beat a man to me. He is fast, ok in defence (high ball question marks remain) but needs so much space to break the line. Given 5 yards he will always be collared. Not good enough in the international game for me where trot ins from 30 yards out are few and far between against the best. Anyway. NZ vs England next week is a prospect. England have to look at the Welsh first half today where time and space were denied to NZ and they looked beatable. In the second half when Wales weren't able to exert that (based initially on scruffy kick off collection) NZ looked head and shoulders better.

I fear that the English backline simply running their channels will result in a cricket score. The England backs must be an individual threat not just a link. England didn't look like scoring against SA today. NZ will butcher them unless England accept they can't plod through an international. They look like a Geoff Cooke / Dick Best side. And that's an insult in today's game.

That is all.

No he was right, the kicking was aimless, the chase wasn't good enough and they kept losing the duels. It was uncomfortably like watching England in the Six Nations. Otherwise, bloody good first half followed by the wave of Blackness almost starting to click - cricket score is coming next week. Did you see the Munster vs NZ game mid week, that was one of the best games of rugby I've seen this year.



England have various problems that they've been papering over since 2003 but it's finally all collapsing. There is no spine to build a team round into which youngsters can be introduced because no 20-40 cap players have been developed, the only experienced player of any quality is Wilkinson and he's crocked. The only option is to put up with defeats while we try and find some players who can cut it and give them the experience at the top level, so far probably Armitage and a few of the flankers. Also the coaching needs even more of a shake up, the players look worse the longer they spend with it, biggest problem being Wells who doesn't appear to have the faintest idea about generating quick ball in the modern game.

Your points on specific players, too kind on Care, he was rubbish, his service is poor, both the options he took and his passing and he's getting found out at the top level now as he taps and goes too often - similarly to your argument about Regan as a classic hooker, Care's flashy running overlooks the basic requirements - he seems to think run, pass, kick instead of pass, run, kick. In many ways I want Paul Hodgson in there but that doesn't appear to be an option. Cipriani is probably the best of a bad lot at 10, stick with him now he's there, 10, 12, 13 are a major issue for England if a few new options don't appear soon. Though an in form Cipriani, Allen, Tait line could be dangerous. Harsh on Sackey, not his best game and needs to take command of the new boys in the back three a bit more however he clearly hurt his ankle at about 20 minutes gone but the stupid 5/2 split meant there was no replacement available. He's actually a very intelligent defensive wing most of the time and his finishing is better than you're giving credit for, he's got a strike rate of over one try every two games in spite of playing in some awful teams, with some of those from very awkward positions.

England are going to get thrashed next week and I'm not sure I'll be able to bear watching it - but I'm hoping at least to see some more coherent play and with any luck the end of Noon's international career and the 5/2 bench.

Sorry Sackey is ok but no better than that.

Steve Thompson could barely get the ball onto the pitch his throwing was so hilariously bad, gloves or not. He was good in the loose and the scrum though.

Tait? Tait?! I'd rather have Noon in than either Tait brother.

Maybe you can criticise Care's decision making but I think he embodies the traits required in the modern game.

I still think Regan had a lot of what is required in an international hooker, and I think his throwing was better than you make out. Sean Fitzpatrick gave little in the loose, but is widely regarded as one of the greatest hookers to ever play the game. Ibanez is another example of a quality hooker who will have a trundle but hits his man and wins his scrums.

England actually fielded a few exciting looking youngsters, but that won't beat the world champions and didn't. NZ must be rubbing their hands. Johnson looks balder every day. This is what it has felt like to be a Welsh fan for 20 odd years you know.

Cipriani needs Wilkinson fit like nothing else. He needs to see that steady, quality decision maker at work and then develop that aspect of his game to push him out. Without that he will never get dropped for his decision making and will never learn.

Well they've shuffled the deck chairs on the Titanic for Saturday. Can't imagine it'll change the fact that no-one has crossed the whitewash against the black tide yet, or in fact scored anything in the second half.

Flood for Cipriani, Lipman for Rees, Kennedy for Palmer and Hipkiss for Shaw on the bench. Still going to get dicked on, but hopefully they'll be an inkling of progress.

The Celts have all failed to do their job though - we give all of you a shot at the All Blacks first to soften them up and between you who do you manage to injure - Ellis, probably the worst of their scrum halves.

Agree to disagree on Sackey, I don't think he's the be all and end all but he's a good winger, Cohenish kind of level, and I expect him to be on the Lion's tour. Do wish Simpson-Daniel wasn't allergic to England call ups though as then we could have the creative/finisher combo rather than 2x finisher as at present.

Stop talking about Thomson in the past tense, he's on the come back trail with Cohen and Andy 'Who ate all le pies' Goode at Brive. Got to admire someone who pays back all his medical compensation in order to play again.

I'm actually a big fan of Care and get the feeling he'll be one of the players that survive through to 2011, but he had a shocker against ZA and the DC/DC partnership doesn't really seem to be getting anywhere. Still better than the recent past when we've had Perry, Gommarsall and Wigglesworth wearing 9, now we've got Care, Ellis, Hodgson and Foden in the frame.

My initial point about Regan remains, good player but he's nowhere near the class of the rest of that BaBas side (except Borthwick and maybe Trinh Duc).

Tait (M) - have you actually seen him play recently or are we harking back to Henson making him look foolish when he was 18? Alex is a prospect, but still raw and just out of the U20s and probably not even the best of the back three players from that World Cup squad, Cato and Benjamin both looking more likely to take the step up.

As an England supporter in Rugby and Cricket as well as Saracens and Yorkshire at club level I'm pretty used to disappointment so shouldn't have a problem dealing with a few years of this team being rubbish.

Well Mr Guwuffle. Tomorrow a vigorous Maori administered bumming awaits England.

And hopefully Wales can claim the bleached scalp of Australia. I am excited and out for an all-dayer in Cardiff. Carnage awaits!

Sobered up yet?

Well done to Wales, rode their luck a bit, but that's what's needed to win games and they closed it out superbly.

At Twickenham, Rolland Rat proved himself to be a first class twunt, but there was as ever a sense of inevitability about the blackness winning out.

England did beat NZ 21-19 this weekend though (at the Dubai 7s) and frankly pretty much gifted the final to South Africa, so some good news.

Oddly unsatisfying autumn all round really, no real classic of a game produced anywhere but some reasonable entertainment - although someone is going to have to work out how to reduce the sheer volume of shitty infield kicking, give me back my line outs and structure.

Yes. Eurgh.

Can't really speak for England as I still haven't seen a single minute of it.

Wales were ok. I don't think the Crooks were on top form and they missed Mortlock far more than Wales missed Roberts. But if you take out the interception try, and the 7 points at the end when Wales knocked off. Australia barely had a look in.

Hurrah. And there is no booze left in Cardiff. I carried it home in my belly.