Be Excellent To Each Other

After reading this article - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20081212/tu ... 23e80.html

I initially thought "hurrah !" and then it dawned on me that the article said "Thought to be"

What's really messed up is my initial reaction.. Was that wrong of me? For years I have stated that all sexual predators should be castrated, which was a really heavy handed way to feel.I've also known for many years that no capital form of punishment can carry no consequences. It's just as murderous as any other form of killing.

It's really got me thinking very deeply, especially after watching Eastbenders last night (something I wouldn't normally watch, I had enough of London when I lived there) but I have been totally taken in by the Tony the Nonse story.

After seeing what happened to the black chap who runs the youth center it has made me think hard and I truly don't know how I should feel about the above article.

Funny that, even after all these years life's still just as confusing as ever

Not only does it say 'thought to be', but 'Child Sex Offender' is also totally meaningless. Took a piss behind a tree and a four year old saw you? Child sex offender.

I'd be more in favour of vigilante justice if I could think of a single person I would trust to be a vigilante.

This is the problem really.. doubt. Unless you have the full stated facts and DNA evidence and so on it's impossible to trust anything.

I didn't realise that getting caught taking a wee could have you labelled sexual predator. Thats a real eye opener.

I'm glad I don't act on impulse tbh, I would have been behind bars years ago.

Mob "justice". Sounds like that Louis Theroux from the weekend. A man was killed, and that is wrong, no matter his alleged crime.

Yep, if they catch you pissing in the street you have to sign the sex offender's register.

The thing about paedophilia is this: we demonize those who prey on and abuse children, perhaps rightly so. But wrongly, we do this with a witch hunt mentality and without understanding.

Why are paedophiles paedophiles? Why do some people find the sexually immature sexually attractive? I don't know and I'm grateful not to be one of them. Is it animal instinct? Is it something that can be controlled? Is it a disease? Can it be cured? Aren't these the same arguments which are/were used against homosexuals?

It's a complicated issue. Far more complicated than tabloid journalism would have you believe.

But I didn't kill this man.

Indeed, just being a paedophile is not and should not be illegal.

I get judged an awful lot myself. I have 2 disabilities which impair my ability to control what I am thinking, which usually ends up being spat out into words. The thing is, I never mean what people think I intended..

I didn't exactly get off on the right foot here. I chose a username, avatar and sig that are pretty controversial and offensive if taken the wrong way. My reason was my total disgust at how the world we live in can be, and the bond that I felt with that poor black man in the film (from The Green Mile.. if you haven't seen it please watch it).

I then went on to joke around quoting movies (with my nigga prease comment) which was from one of the American Pie movies, but looking back totally out of place.. So I guess it is easy for people to label me nasty or rude.

Because of the two conditions I have sometimes I absolutely cannot control what comes into my mind. It's cost me my marriage, my job and will go on costing me as long as I live. So in the same way I can totally understand why a sexual predator does what he does (of course I find it incredibly hard to justify though, infact I can't....)

I was watching an episode of Dateline NBC when I was in the USA, called "To catch a predator". Some dude was caught RED HANDED entering the house of what he thought was a 13 year old girl.. I watched the show and over time my utter disbelief and hatred changed, and I began to actually pity these people.

Not because of what they were doing, I mean, in acceptable society it's sick immoral and wrong, but pity because they just couldn't help themselves. The above dude was arrested, humilated and named and shamed. THREE HOURS later he went to a macdonalds to meet with ANOTHER of the show's traps.

How awful must it be to be addicted/obsessed with something so sick and immoral and have utterly no control over it?

It's the same question as the age old "would you forgive someone who murdered someone you know" I suppose until you are faced with it you have absolutely no idea how you would actually respond or react if that really happened to you.

I wouldn't say you've started off on a bad foot at all. You're nicely articulate on the reasons why, and I for one welcome our new John overlords.

Absolutly, you have answered questions put to you fully and reasonably and I certainly welcome your presence here.

So, Hello!

Can't say too much here, but I've supported 20 odd people in the last twelve months and two of them have been labelled nonces, one by an ex, one by a neighbour, purely because he is an HIV positive gay man.

Both have been attacked, one very seriously, for this. Neither are guilty of any impropriety. I've gained enough confidence and dug deep enough to be certain.

Shocking business and I abhor mob justice in this regard. Besides which, a nonce doesn't choose how they are wired, it is no more their fault than I'm to blame for me being English. I think there are two rules of thumb here - we can never 'let them get away with it' but conversely we must never give them a thrasing for it. Walled communities or something, I dunno - but nonce lynchings are eye-for-an-eye taken too far. Paedophiles are akin to a dog that tries to shag your leg. You shake it off, you train it to stop, you lock it in the back room, but you don't kick the shit out of it or murder it.

If sex with members of the opposite sex over eighteen was found to be morally wrong tomorrow, it wouldn't change how any of us feel, and it wouldn't stop us doing it. I'd like to think people would strive for a humane way to handle my natural inclination to fuck straight female adults.

And as for the victims - what's better? Telling them the guy who raped them is evil and being punished forever, or telling them he is ill and being cared for? I'd wager the latter, as a 'victim' of sexual abuse myself, and someone who has parented a child who suffered a far more severe version of the same fate themselves.

I fact, I'd go so far as to say the paedophile is a better person than the mob who lynch him or her. I used to (briefly - tough gig) be a support worker to paedophiles - and all of them at some point struggled with and fought their nature. Mobs have justice on their side, like Bush and Bin Laden and Harriet Harman. They don't ever question their instincts.Cunts, the fucking lot of them. More animal than human.

I think you're degrading animals in that last sentence there dude.

I couldn't agree more tbh.

I have Bipolar 2 and Autism. Both of which are a bad mix if you want to keep a lid on your feelings. The Bipolar gives me mania, at which point I'm boucing around like zebede and all kinds of silly shit comes out of my mouth. I've invented hundreds of new swear words, and sometimes I'll keep saying something stupid over and over and piss myself laughing. Latter of course is caused by the Autism.

I worked in the USA in sales. SALES. The worst kind of job in the entire world if you (like me) are brutally honest. We sold this skin cream that reduced wrinkles immediately (like really did and really worked) so I decided to delve a little.. I found out that the main ingredient was the same main active ingredient in Preperation H (not sure if it sells by that name here in the UK but it's basically haemorroid cream, designed to send the farmer giles back up the gary) hence why it did a friggin good job on wrinkles.

Some woman once asked me what was in it, and before I could think I said "pile ointment love" she hung up. Bear in mind we charged $90 for this grape cream. I got written up. Then we were selling a product with what ammounted to be meth amphetamine in it, so I started telling customers it gave you bone marrow cancer (which it does). I got written up again.

My third strike involved some woman calling up for dual action cleanse.It's herbal quackery that supposedly clears your colon of all the 'toxins' /roll eyes. She asked if I took it, before I could stop and think I blurted out "not on your nelly love, I dont need it because I dont eat crap and excercise regularly" I got fired the next day when they were auditing the calls.

It's hardest of all because I know that certain things shouldn't be said. Like, when my ex wife put on aload of weight and looked fat she would ask me "do I look fat in this" and Id say "you are fat love". In the end I suppose it got a bit too much for her, but she just didn't understand that I couldn't lie to her.

At the time I didn't know I had autism. I was on meds for the bipolar 2 but was only diagnosed with Autism when I saw the psychologist and they asked me about things I did as a kid (like rocking and so on) and deciphered that wasn't the bipolar then as I was too young to be showing symptoms.

It does cost me. The worst part is I'm fully aware of when I fuck up, but it's always after the fact, after I have insulted someone. I don't think the USA was the best place for me to be to be honest, theyre upitty enough as it is

Not at all. Animals do what is the natural thing for them to do, the instinctive thing. Humans can check themselves (before they wreck themselves). Here's a thought - with that said - how likely is it that there are people who know your children, if you have any, to whom you are close, and who have 'tendencies' towards them - but manage to keep it in check? Maybe the ones who buckle under the weight of their nature are a minority in the grand pantheon of child-fanciers. Brrrr.

But I stand by my animal statement and refer you to my leg-shagging-dog analogy.

As a call centre and sales veteran, i salute you, sir. I've been fired for telling the truth as well, and I'm tested as being right down the uninteresting end of the autistic spectrum.

That said, being in sales is worse than paedophilia, and I hate myself for it. Unlean! Unclean!

This is so wrong, if I ask a question I want an honest answer, not some namby pamby one.

Goatboy, wow, some very good points raised there, thank you for that*.

*I think that might sound a little patronising, it's not meant to, I covered some of this at uni, and found it to be very interesting.

I really have no idea how I coped with it in honesty. I made MAD sales however, and alot of money. But I refused to lie EVER.

Our script was awful, totally rude and linear, and involved literally railroading the customer. At the bottom of the script it had what, I can only describe as the lies. Automated replies. Basically if a customer asked if we had taken it we were supposed to scroll down and then read -

"Yes Sir/Madam !!! I take it regularly and let me tell you I feel fantastic" I point blank fucking refused to read this, and non verbatim resulted in dismissal, it's no sodding wonder I lost my job. It was fine all the time the customer was careful, but if they dared to ask I just couldn't control my reply. In the end I tried drugging the shit out of myself with Zoloft (sertraline) but it was no good. I lost my job, shortly after my wife left, I then lost my flat and had to return to the UK.

At least now I don't have to worry anymore. Just facing people on a day to day basis and trying my fucking hardest not to say anything rude or insulting is practically impossible for me. It makes me ill with stress and I can see straight through people's bullshit.. If I had a quid for every time someone blatantly pissed in my face and told me it was raining I would be a rich man. And I think that's why I just can't seem to get along in society very well, because I don't play the fucking games people live by on a daily basis.

I was on a train the other week coming home. There were about 9 chav teenagers (though I confess I do live in a lovely place, so they were less harmless than council chavs). They were talking loudly about this and that.. Then a black man walked along the platform, which is quite out of the ordinary for where I live. It started. "Nigger this" Nigger that. I sat there slowly growing more and more infuriated until I couldn't control myself. I stood up, waved a 20 pound note at them and said "Alright you little cunts. Whose going to take this 20 and ride the train into brixton in london with me... Any takers?"

They went silent. I realised after that it was incredibly stupid and could have quite easily gotten my skull caved in, but at that moment I had no control over what I was doing at all. I reakon i would have gotten at least three of them tho lmao.

In ways with Autism you are incredibly gifted. In others you are fucking doomed. I read a book by a woman with Autism, who explained it as feeling like "An anthropologist living on mars"

The thing is i have absolutely no tact whatsoever. None. I couldnt say something nice or nothing at all if my life depended on it. Seriously, it's utterly terrible

My wife once asked me why her dad didn't spend any time with her. I simply replied "because hes a terrible fucking father who shouldnt have had kids"

Not what she wanted to hear of course. Her family absolutely hated me lol.

Well I do have some tact, but with a partner I expect and give absolute honesty.

So, you are half me and I'll just claim my £2.50.

It's extremely rare for someone to actually be able to take complete and absolute honesty. The only people who appreciate it are my family, none of whom see me as bipolar, autistic or anything else (although they fully know about it, I dont fucking care anymore tbh Im not pretending).

People say "I appreciate your honesty" all the time, however when faced with it it's a very different story.A mate of mine, a long time friend like, just stopped speaking to me. Basically he moved in with a 21 year old girl (he's 33). He doesn't work, does fuck all and complains about being depressed all the time. It's no wonder.

A few months ago her dad flew off the handle with him (her dad recently found out his wife had been cheating on him for years, she kicked HIM out) and had a go at him.
He was really upset by this. so asked me for advice, an opinion of how he appeared.

I pointed out to him that -

A. he was living there rent free costing the guy money.
B. was a pakistani, and if her dad had any racist tendencies then he was fucked from the off.
C. if he didnt stop fucking whining and get off his ass he would lose his girlfriend, who basically worked herself to death to support him.

He hasnt spoken to me since. The thing is, what I said to him was completely true. Her dad DOES strike me as someone who wouldn't be too comfortable with a pakistani living in his house sponging off him and fucking his daughter. But it wasnt what my mate wanted to hear, too close to the bone, and we havent spoken since.

In ways I wish I had just said "there there, everything will come good" but I just couldnt.

When I worked as a sales assitant I would give an honest opinion on anything asked of me. I had quite a few regular customers who would ask for me by name, and ask things like "Is that a good deal?" "Is that a big pile of crap?" and if it was, I told them so. They respected me for it, and if I said something was good, it's because I thought it was.

I had a few customers come up to me and declare how great I was, depsite not remembering them I'd told them to go and buy things like an iRiver instead of an iPod, getting a much better product for less money (her daughter LOVED it apparently, and I got a tip out of it).

Equally, I do try to be as honest as possible with people all of the time, mainly because I don't like to lie, and I don't see why I should. People realise after a while if they think they won't like the answer, don't ask. I'm not your motivational coach.

That said, I also subscribe to the school of thought that tells me to just shut the fuck up quite often, and I won't say anything unless outright asked. Without that, I'd probably drop myself in quite a lot of shit!

And there lies the answer tbh. Imagine not having that ability? not being able to control what you say?

Even worse man, imagine not being able to control what you do .

I've earned so many nicknames over the years. Tourettes (and my last name) Angry Andy and so on. My friends think I'm hysterically funny. What they never realised however is that I wasn't being funny, I was actually just being me. It was at the point where I just cut contact with those people instead of telling them that I was basically mentally ill. Oh, another nick I got as a kid was Rain Man, because I used to utter words like "fart" and so on.

But I'm really lucky, because I have an extreme sense of right and wrong, and love and empathy. I worry about being a nonse, about being a killer. Even about being attracted to young girls (its fucking frightening these days how old young girls look). Of course, I wouldn't actually ever DO anything, but these kinds of feelings fly through my head, get stuck and I then worry myself sick about them.

I'm pretty sure that at some point in everyone's life they have asked questions of themselves. Like really asked questions of themselves (for example could I actually kill someone in cold blood?) and so on, and have deciphered they are not capable of it.

As I say, for years I was fuckin A sure that if I ever came face to face with a child predator that I would kill the cunt at once, cut off his balls and hang them over my shoulder and ETC, but when it actually happened today I felt ashamed for ever thinking that way. Because then I'm judging someone.

This is all people need to do - realise that even the most twisted of us is human. Paedophiles, serial killers, nazis, everyone. All human. Pretending they're just evil cartoon monsters is irresponsible, self-serving bullshit.



I mean, seriously. Well done, everyone. You're all murderers now, and sadistic, cowardly murderers at that. I'm sure the children you kiss goodnight will sleep easier knowing that a few hours ago your hands were covered with the blood of a man you slaughtered.

What's the betting that at least a third of the people in that mob have abused their own children?

This sounds like basic playground rumour. A man who ticks all the boxes in terms of being a 'weirdo' is bullied, persecuted, and killed.

In my experience, many people never develop past the playground, and the behaviours they learn there form the template for how they operate in their adult life.

This boils down to the age-old statement that People = Idiots.

It's worth noting that the Police do not believe that a mob was involved. The guy was killed in a tiny caravan which was not large enough to swing a cat in. The evidence suggests that this brutal attack was the work of one person.

Edit: Please ignore me the BBC have now changed their story. Four people have been arrested thus far.

Think back a few years... how tabloids would print 'BURN THESE SICK NONCES ALIVE' on one page and 'Phwoar The Olsen Twins/Charlotte Church/Christina Ricci are sure filling out nicely eh?'

Even though there is no physical/appearance change on her 18th birthday, if you fancied any of these girls before that date you are a DISGUSTING EVIL PAEDO.

Yep, there's a great pic of the sun doing this with a 15 year old Church literally right next to a paedo story.

And as someone the same age as Ms Ricci, I will of course state for the record I've fancied her pretty much forever

Ms Ricci is another (see Jennifer Connelly comments in The Day The Earth Stood Still thread) with a spectacular rack.

I'm remembering some comments made at moip's house regarding 'her heaving bosom being tied flat' in Addams Family Values...

She's had a breast reduction. But gets them out in "Prozac Nation".

Hmm, well I'm no supporter of mob justice and certainly don't think this man deserved his fate even if he was, in fact, totally guilty of his alleged crimes.

That said however, I do think that true paedophilia in the correct sense of the term is utterly abhorrent, quite possibly the worst of all crimes (self evidently worse even than rape, as at least in this case the victim as an adult and thus far more likely to be able to comprehend/deal with such an ordeal better than, say, a child of five).

I mean, we have to draw the line somewhere, right? For a start, I don't accept any analogies whatsoever between homosexuality and paedophilia, notwithstanding the stigma attached to the former by stupid, ignorant and bigotted people. In the case of the former, one is dealing with mutually consenting adults and how they choose to conduct their sex lives is an inherently benign issue and fundamentally no-one else's business. (This is a black and white issue for me; I happen to like leggy blonde women but it could just as easily have been short brunettes, thin redheads or athletic men for that matter - who cares as long as it's only consenting adults we're talking about?)

However, the same is clearly not true in the case of paedophiles, as uniquely in this case, one is dealing with non-consential sex (abuse) with minors, much to their very great detriment and lasting damage - there's no sweeping that one under the carpet. It is a vile act of the greatest selfishness precisely because of this unavoidable, irrevocable damage to the victim, irrespective of how one is "wired" - what a ludicrous excuse that is! How about considering the damage to the child's "wiring" that is caused by such attacks?

As has already been said, the key difference between humans and animals is that we are sentient, conscious beings able to make moral judgements and proactive life decisions that transcend our basic instincts. That we do not indulge our every instinctive whim and sexual urges irrespective of any consequences or thought for others, in spite of physical strength or whatever is, or should be, a mark of our basic shared humanity. If certain individuals are incapable of this, they are frankly less than human in my opinion and deserve only our contempt. (Hell, even animals do not necessarily behave in such a manner; for them, sex is largely simply an issue of procreation for its own sake and thus simply a strategy for ongoing survival of their respective species).

In terms of how we deal with true paedophiles, I believe our children have the basic right to be protected from such predators, precisely because of the undeniable, very great damage that is caused to them by such people. And accordingly, I think that the humane but long term imprisonment of such individuals is essential. Sorry if that's 'off message' here.

You sound incredibly like someone I used to know. A very long time ago

That sounds enigmatic old chap.

I've no idea? Possible online I guess, though I don't frequent many forums etc. I've no idea whether you agree with me or not, but I'm really not trying to upset anyone here. These are my honestly held views on the matter; I have seen first hand the damage caused to some people close to me by historic childhood sex abuse. It's truly devastating.

Cavey - the important thing when using terms like Paedophile is the distinction between the desire and the act. Someone can be a paedophile without ever having gone within arms reach of a child, and demonising someone for that isn't right, surely?

Not until the Thought Crime Act 20xx is passed, at least.

But of course, I wasn't suggesting otherwise, Craster old chap. It is people's actions upon which they should be judged, not their thoughts. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that?

However, to suggest that it's somehow understandable or forgivable on any level whatsoever for someone to defile a child - regardless of their sexual preferences ("wiring") is, I am afraid, utterly repugnant. The very same 'defence' could well be given for a serial rapist also, who may well have a predelection for violent, non consential sex with women? And as I have stated, the child abuser is in my view an even lower creature than the rapist, for at least in the case of the latter, their blameless victims are at least adults who are generally better equipped to deal with such gross trauma and abuse than a child. How could anyone think any differently?

I truly despise child abusers, they are the scum of the Earth.

Except of course in the post he quoted where you used them interchangeably.

For instance



and



So yes, you certainly DID suggest otherwise.

Please don't put words into my mouth, I know what I said. Obviously, paedophile = someone who actually abuses children sexually, i.e. commits the crime, not someone who thinks dark thoughts and keeps them to himself. This is no time for futile and pointless sophistry; my posts are perfectly clear. Painfully so, in fact.

I might think about killing someone in a fit of rage, but that wouldn't make me a murderer unless I actually did it... BIG difference.

No. It isn't.

Duds is right, Cavey, and that's my point - a paedophile is someone who is attracted to children, not necessarily someone who's ever committed any form of abuse. Which it's why it's very important to be careful with terminology when talking about something as volatile as this.

A paedophile who has actually abused a child would be a pederast, I believe.

While it sounds like sophistry, it's important.

Cras is right on this point, Cavey chum. I very much doubt anyone here would disagree that abusing a child is in no way analogous to having homosexual sex, but there is a fair parallel to be drawn between homosexual and paedophilic tendencies (or, for that matter, for any sexual fixation).

Certainly not morally, but simply in terms of desire - persecuting someone for feeling urges is totally unfair and barbaric however terrible or benign those urges are. Nobody chooses to be attracted to children, and those who are but manage to refrain from ever harming a child, and especially those who actively seek help, are frankly heroic characters.

Well no, absolutely not.

So I'm unavoidably and irrevocably damaged, am I?

Making statements like that, you might as well fuck the kids yourself. Children don't need to be told their lives are fucked up, they need to be shown that they were not given respect. To reinforce the whole "you were involved in something dirty" bullshit is to hurt the child yourself. Many abusers convince a child to get involved using language, not force. It is that uneasy feeling that one is somehow to blame, simply for trusting, or not running away, that causes the worst trauma, imho.

The world is full of 'victims' of sexual abuse, young and old, who pity their abuser, or see the literal acts perpetrated against themselves as an inconvenience or just a bad way to spend an afternoon. If you offered me a choice now between ten minutes getting abused by the guy who had designs on me as a child, or ten minutes with a so-called friend from my year in school who'd bully me in the playground, I'll take the nonce any day of the week. Far less traumatic than playground bullying - but this is because I make up my own mind what is painful to me - and society not considering abuse from peers in public to be unacceptable at that age does not make it any less traumatic to me.

You don't tell a victim how they felt, or what this has done to them. You ask, or you are part of the problem.

Irrevocably damaged? Fuck off.

When my father died people treated me differently. I'd walk into class and everyone would go silent. TBH I wish noone ever knew. It was hard enough to deal with without being made to feel any more different than I already did.

I've no idea, but judging from the tone of your post, I'd have to say 'probably', unfortunately. You have my sympathy whether you like it or not.



What, so kids who are sexually abused are not irrevocably damaged then? Oh no, that's right, they are - through the gross selfishness of others for their own vile gratification and through no fault of their own. Anyway, how dare you say that about me, that is wholly unwarranted and outrageous.



You're right, children don't need to be told, they know it already. And where exactly did I say I didn't respect victims of abuse, hmm? So, just another idiot putting words into my mouth, then, incapable as you are of even interpreting my very clear post, which was not intended to be critical of anyone besides the perpetrators of such abuse.

No doubt you find this cathartic on some level or other? I hope so, just as I do venting my unchanging, absolute cold as steel hatred of paedophiles.



I have never reinforced anything, quite the reverse in fact, as implied in my post. And no, I am not going to go into any details, more especially for someone like you. Suffice to say that I have first hand experience of helping and healing very damaged young people, now thankfully happy, confident young adults in nice relationships of their own. But still damaged forever.

If you say you're not, then I am very happy for you, genuinely. But I don't think that holds true for most, unfortunately, and this is precisely why it's such a grossly selfish and evil crime, in my opinion.



That's your view on the matter and I have to respect that. But I seriously doubt most would agree with you; we don't lock up schoolyard bullies for 15 years, for good reason.



You are preaching to the converted, but since when did my views or feelings have any bearing on your furious venting?



Nice.

Sheer pedantry and nit-picking bollocks, nothing more. As stated, it's abundantly clear from my posts that I am exclusively referring to the practictioners of such acts, not people who blamelessly are that way inclined but do not act upon it in any way, shape or form.

If there's one thing I cannot stand, it's people putting words into my mouth.

It very much isn't though. When using a term to describe someone, it's damned important that you're distinct about whether you're talking about a vile human being who's a child abuser and someone else who is attracted to children but has avoided that impulse their entire life and has councilling to help them.